I've been working with Sarah Fay of Writers at Work, both one on one and watching her webinars.
She has been a great editor for me in teaching me how best to write on Substack given the pros and cons of the specific medium. She's also given me a lot of tough love, which I quickly figured out was an expression of her confidence in where I could take my writing.
As well, I will not send out a post until my wife gives the green light. We've been married for 38 years, and she has a laser-like ability to spot my weaknesses and intemperate sentences.
In terms of first drafts, I'm in between the method you described. I want to know where I'm going before I start, but I'll be willing to start writing knowing that I'll likely change direction.
I love KC Davis! Her first book was a big, big help to battle burn out. The audiobook version is like listening to that kind, but real friend who's validates your hurt and struggle and then reaches out a hand and says "OK, let's take these first few steps together".
The credit for 'the first shitty draft' is actually Anne Lamott. Her book Bird by Bird is an absolutely must-read for all writers, and I think creatives as a whole. It's an absolutely hilarious read and holds the most highlighted and flagged sessions of any book I own. I read it often. She sits it the muck of what it's like to really write. And similar to KC's writing style, feels like having a conversation with a friend who's going to tell you, you've just got to write. It's going to be painful, and seemingly impossible, but you are compelled to write, so do it.
It was thanks to Anne Lamott that I finally wrote my very own first shitty draft (post) here.
I love the imagery of a person like KC or Brene helping us take the first few steps forward. 🤗Speaking of, I did cross check KC’s Brene reference and Brene took Anne’s original framing of writing a shitty first draft but put in context of the interpersonal narratives we tell ourselves and how we need kind people in our lives to tell us the truth about who we are. 🧡
I’d say I’m somewhere in between the “shitty first draft” and writing something that is halfway decent. I’d rather learn how to do it semi right than do something that is complete crap. But that’s just me. I can also see the value of JUST STARTING. Sometimes, that’s half the battle. Thanks for sharing! ☺️
I’ve found lately that I have to let my first draft be all explainy and boring. It’s part of how my brain is trying to organize the information into a reasonable outline. And then I go back through and do a “show me” edit where I mostly rewrite the whole thing with real life, immerse or narrative storytelling.
Sharing this with my writing group. Whatever catches the lightning in the bottle. Brené Brown has talked about how hard it was for her to slog through writing until she took a group of friends away and she would write then pop out to read stuff to them, they would respond, then she would write more. I believe table tennis is also part of her process. That gave me so much permission. Douglas Adams (of Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy fame) used to leave long messages on friends’ answering machines and someone had to go around & collect them up for him. As Lois McMaster Bujold has a character say (Paladin of Souls) “the gods did not desire flawless souls, but great ones” and so do readers.
I think that advice about juggling is spot on! I’m a big Lazy Genius fan and the “name what matters”, “start small” and “put everything in its place” are constant things I return to. On any given day what matters most is going to change - it can’t be everything. But as much as I can I build in space for things to have a place and it allows me to exist a little more peaceably in my chaos.
I read this comment while I was flying solo with our toddler to Michigan. And I just really soaked in the picture of letting things be peaceful even within the chaos. I needed that today.
Your series of interviews (with KC and Erin) is really helping shift my paradigm in a healthy direction. I never thought that my writing, which feels like such a solitary, uncharted endeavor, could be in active partnership with others. I never thought of an editor as someone who could be with me in the most solitary spaces. And now that you’ve framed it that way (and sorry, i know I may be mis-paraphrasing in a way that suits me) I feel like that’s exactly what I need.
I feel like my major struggle with a “shitty first draft” is that writing—just saying what I have to say—is so damn scary. A lot of times I struggle to connect with how people talk about shitty first drafts, because it often comes down to “just start writing, and keep writing.” But I feel like I have to dig so deep to find language for the thing, that my pace for a first draft is generally 3 or 4 sentences an hour. If I try to speed it up, I can write a whole draft and not actually have said the thing. Like it’s not even a first draft. It’s just words.
But the idea of someone accompanying me in finding that language sounds so lovely—both for the outcome of the process, and to soothe the terror ramped up in my nervous system every time I write.
Shaina, I really had to soak in this comment for a little bit because it resonated so much with me. I know that feeling of just 3-4 sentences at a time coming out. I know the feeling of NOTHING coming and yet knowing there’s more that wants to come out maybe? I appreciate you sharing so openly. I think this “dipping your toe in the water” practice is part of what I’m trying to offer in Ask an Editor. I have such a more nuanced appreciation for what it takes to let someone else see, let alone influence or provide feedback, on my writing. And I do hope that’s what is cultivated there: a safety to practice being heard and getting feedback. And also being trusted to know that your writing is where it should be and there’s a way to titrate exposure to small nudges forward.
Yes, there’s also the feeling of nothing! Everything I write involves at least a couple hours typing and deleting a single sentence. But I can feel the work happening, and if I can STAY WITH MYSELF (a brand new skill) I can move through it. I think that’s the key to first drafts for me. Not “just write” so much as “just stay with yourself.”
I think this is all very timely for me. I’m in the early stages of my substack, where I’m exploring what it feels like to write and post regularly. It’s kind of one of those sacred personal journeys that can’t be summarized. It’s exhilarating to begin to move past these lifelong blocks, but I’m having a hard time coping with the exposure (and I’m not talking about audience size--my audience is tiny--but that feeling of nakedness). I have a wonderful therapist and all kinds of self-care tools, but I can’t seem to find my way to a feeling of safety. Maybe I need something I haven’t tried. I can’t afford a personal editor write now, but a paid subscription here might be a good next step (sometimes I have to hold off for a month to fit it into my budget, so if I don’t convert in the next couple days it’s probably not because I’ve changed my mind!). Just to bring a little community into the process, and not only into the outcome.
I love KC’s honesty in these interviews. In screenwriting we called it the vomit draft. This always resonated with me even with essay writing. Puke it out, then clean it up. Sorry to be yucky but writing can be messy.
Brilliant interview, thank you so much for sharing it! A client put me onto KC's first book, and I loved its combo of strength and gentleness, and there's a lot of both of those in these answers too. I love the idea of challenging that there is a 'right' way to do things, and embracing the messy imperfection of exploring and (re)discovering what we need from our creative processes as we move through them.
I've been working with Sarah Fay of Writers at Work, both one on one and watching her webinars.
She has been a great editor for me in teaching me how best to write on Substack given the pros and cons of the specific medium. She's also given me a lot of tough love, which I quickly figured out was an expression of her confidence in where I could take my writing.
As well, I will not send out a post until my wife gives the green light. We've been married for 38 years, and she has a laser-like ability to spot my weaknesses and intemperate sentences.
In terms of first drafts, I'm in between the method you described. I want to know where I'm going before I start, but I'll be willing to start writing knowing that I'll likely change direction.
robertsdavidn.substack.com/about
I love KC Davis! Her first book was a big, big help to battle burn out. The audiobook version is like listening to that kind, but real friend who's validates your hurt and struggle and then reaches out a hand and says "OK, let's take these first few steps together".
The credit for 'the first shitty draft' is actually Anne Lamott. Her book Bird by Bird is an absolutely must-read for all writers, and I think creatives as a whole. It's an absolutely hilarious read and holds the most highlighted and flagged sessions of any book I own. I read it often. She sits it the muck of what it's like to really write. And similar to KC's writing style, feels like having a conversation with a friend who's going to tell you, you've just got to write. It's going to be painful, and seemingly impossible, but you are compelled to write, so do it.
It was thanks to Anne Lamott that I finally wrote my very own first shitty draft (post) here.
Hey! Thanks for chiming in. 🧡
I love the imagery of a person like KC or Brene helping us take the first few steps forward. 🤗Speaking of, I did cross check KC’s Brene reference and Brene took Anne’s original framing of writing a shitty first draft but put in context of the interpersonal narratives we tell ourselves and how we need kind people in our lives to tell us the truth about who we are. 🧡
Yes! Here is Anne Lamont’s “Shitty First Drafts.” When I teach English Comp classes I use it!
When I have important things to write, I always have at least two writer friends look it over.
https://wrd.as.uky.edu/sites/default/files/1-Shitty%20First%20Drafts.pdf
I’d say I’m somewhere in between the “shitty first draft” and writing something that is halfway decent. I’d rather learn how to do it semi right than do something that is complete crap. But that’s just me. I can also see the value of JUST STARTING. Sometimes, that’s half the battle. Thanks for sharing! ☺️
I’ve found lately that I have to let my first draft be all explainy and boring. It’s part of how my brain is trying to organize the information into a reasonable outline. And then I go back through and do a “show me” edit where I mostly rewrite the whole thing with real life, immerse or narrative storytelling.
I love that everyone has a diff process for editing, and I enjoy learning more about other ppl’s styles. 🤓
Sharing this with my writing group. Whatever catches the lightning in the bottle. Brené Brown has talked about how hard it was for her to slog through writing until she took a group of friends away and she would write then pop out to read stuff to them, they would respond, then she would write more. I believe table tennis is also part of her process. That gave me so much permission. Douglas Adams (of Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy fame) used to leave long messages on friends’ answering machines and someone had to go around & collect them up for him. As Lois McMaster Bujold has a character say (Paladin of Souls) “the gods did not desire flawless souls, but great ones” and so do readers.
I think that advice about juggling is spot on! I’m a big Lazy Genius fan and the “name what matters”, “start small” and “put everything in its place” are constant things I return to. On any given day what matters most is going to change - it can’t be everything. But as much as I can I build in space for things to have a place and it allows me to exist a little more peaceably in my chaos.
I read this comment while I was flying solo with our toddler to Michigan. And I just really soaked in the picture of letting things be peaceful even within the chaos. I needed that today.
Oh man! Well done. Solo flying with a toddler is a whole thing 😅
Your series of interviews (with KC and Erin) is really helping shift my paradigm in a healthy direction. I never thought that my writing, which feels like such a solitary, uncharted endeavor, could be in active partnership with others. I never thought of an editor as someone who could be with me in the most solitary spaces. And now that you’ve framed it that way (and sorry, i know I may be mis-paraphrasing in a way that suits me) I feel like that’s exactly what I need.
I feel like my major struggle with a “shitty first draft” is that writing—just saying what I have to say—is so damn scary. A lot of times I struggle to connect with how people talk about shitty first drafts, because it often comes down to “just start writing, and keep writing.” But I feel like I have to dig so deep to find language for the thing, that my pace for a first draft is generally 3 or 4 sentences an hour. If I try to speed it up, I can write a whole draft and not actually have said the thing. Like it’s not even a first draft. It’s just words.
But the idea of someone accompanying me in finding that language sounds so lovely—both for the outcome of the process, and to soothe the terror ramped up in my nervous system every time I write.
Shaina, I really had to soak in this comment for a little bit because it resonated so much with me. I know that feeling of just 3-4 sentences at a time coming out. I know the feeling of NOTHING coming and yet knowing there’s more that wants to come out maybe? I appreciate you sharing so openly. I think this “dipping your toe in the water” practice is part of what I’m trying to offer in Ask an Editor. I have such a more nuanced appreciation for what it takes to let someone else see, let alone influence or provide feedback, on my writing. And I do hope that’s what is cultivated there: a safety to practice being heard and getting feedback. And also being trusted to know that your writing is where it should be and there’s a way to titrate exposure to small nudges forward.
Yes, there’s also the feeling of nothing! Everything I write involves at least a couple hours typing and deleting a single sentence. But I can feel the work happening, and if I can STAY WITH MYSELF (a brand new skill) I can move through it. I think that’s the key to first drafts for me. Not “just write” so much as “just stay with yourself.”
I think this is all very timely for me. I’m in the early stages of my substack, where I’m exploring what it feels like to write and post regularly. It’s kind of one of those sacred personal journeys that can’t be summarized. It’s exhilarating to begin to move past these lifelong blocks, but I’m having a hard time coping with the exposure (and I’m not talking about audience size--my audience is tiny--but that feeling of nakedness). I have a wonderful therapist and all kinds of self-care tools, but I can’t seem to find my way to a feeling of safety. Maybe I need something I haven’t tried. I can’t afford a personal editor write now, but a paid subscription here might be a good next step (sometimes I have to hold off for a month to fit it into my budget, so if I don’t convert in the next couple days it’s probably not because I’ve changed my mind!). Just to bring a little community into the process, and not only into the outcome.
I love KC’s honesty in these interviews. In screenwriting we called it the vomit draft. This always resonated with me even with essay writing. Puke it out, then clean it up. Sorry to be yucky but writing can be messy.
💯 shitty first drafts. Heck even my third draft can be shitty 🤣
Brilliant interview, thank you so much for sharing it! A client put me onto KC's first book, and I loved its combo of strength and gentleness, and there's a lot of both of those in these answers too. I love the idea of challenging that there is a 'right' way to do things, and embracing the messy imperfection of exploring and (re)discovering what we need from our creative processes as we move through them.